Modern Day Debates notes

Here are the notes for the debate between Stephen Smith and MCToon vs Nathan Thompson and Austin Whitsitt hosted by Modern Day Debate.

Quote from Austin: “When you make a positive claim, you have the burden of proof”.  We totally agree.  We will include evidence for all claims.  Being this is Austin’s stance and most likely Nathan’s stance, we expect the same from them.

Stephen and Toon positive claims and supporting evidence

  • The earth’s radius has been measured
    • Radius of the Earth Measurements
    • Using the measurements from “Transcontinental Triangulation and the American Arc of the Parallel”:
      • Equatorial radius: 6,377,912 meters = 3963.05078342 miles
      • Polar radius: 6,356,309 meters = 3949.62730156 miles
      • Average radius: 6,367,109 meters = 3956.33811044 miles
  • The Law of Gravitational Attraction has been measured
  • The rotation of the earth has been measured
  • The effects of atmospheric refraction have been measured
    • Refraction effects Quantified
    • Atmospheric refraction causes distant objects to appear slightly elevated proportional to the lapse rate and distance under all but the most extreme conditions.
  • Could the sun set if the earth were flat?
    • 60 NM =  1 degree latitude:
    • December 2019 solstice measurement:
    • My measurement of the sun’s angle was 22.5433°Sun elevation 3
      • The reduction for 22° is 2′ 12″, for 23° is 2′ 6″.  Split the difference in favor of 23° and use 2′ 9″ -> 0.0356°
      • Corrected for refraction the sun angle is 22.5077°
    • Distance to the Tropic of Capricorn at local solar noon:
      • Sun elevation 445.02083° + 23.5° = 68.52083°
      • 68.52083° * 60NM = 4111.2498NM = 4731.1418miles
      • SOH COH TOA: tan( theta ) = opposite/adjacent
      • tan( theta ) * adjacent = opposite
      • opposite = 1972.8792 miles elevation
    • December 2019 Solstice sun flat earth minimum sun angle:
      • Latitude: 45.02083 N
      • Distance to the Tropic of Capricorn at local solan Nadir:
      • 90° – 45.02083° = 44.97917 to north pole
      • 90° from north pole to equator
      • 23.5° from equator to Tropic of Capricorn
      • 158.47917° total = 9508.7502NM = 10942.4743miles
      • SOH COH TOA: tan( theta ) = opposite/adjacent
      • opposite = 1972.8792
      • adjacent = 10,942.4743
      • opposite/adjacent = 0.180295529687
      • arctan(0.180295529687) = 10.22°
      • The flat earth angle of the sun above true level due to perspective is 10.22°.
      • Adding in elevation due to refraction: 5′ 3″ = 0.08417
    • Final predicted flat earth elevation due to perspective: 10.3041° above true level.
    • That night the sun set.  Therefore the earth is not flat.
  • The sun is a physical object:
    • Radar was bounced off the sun. A distinct pattern of long and short pulses were sent and received.
    • Radar Studies of the Sun at 38 MC/S Jesse C. James, 1966
      • “About 1000 daily radar experiments have been made of the Sun at El Campo, Texas, since April, 1961. This paper presents some of the results of these experiments.”
      • “Briefly, one radar experiment is performed by transmitting a coded signal toward the Sun for 16 min., the round-trip time, and then receiving the echo for the following 16 min. The average transmitted power is 500 kw, and the antenna gain is 33 to 36 db relative to isotropic.”
      • Link to Publication:…146..356J
  • Calculate curve:
    • h = ( R / ( cosine( s/R – arccosine( R / ( R+h0 ) ) ) ) ) – R

Nathan Thompson and Austin Whitsitt positive claims and supporting evidence

  1. Austin referring to the triangulation of the sun’s elevation: “You can’t presuppose solidity”
    • This does not matter, the triangulation of a light source does not require solidity.
    • No evidence presented
  2. Austin denies the moon landings
    • No evidence provided
  3. Austin: Space violates the second law of thermodynamics
    • No evidence presented
  4. Austin: “The necessary antecedent for gas pressure is physical containment”
    • No evidence presented
  5. Austin: “We’ve never been able to get past 70 miles”
  6. Austin speaking about space travel: “We’re not legally allowed to try to go there”
  7. Austin: “positive claims have the burden of proof”
    • He is already 6 claims in with no proof presented.  The irony.
  8. Austin: “Your entire fairy tale religion is void of scientific empirical evidence”
    • Ad hom
    • We had already presented measurements of the radius of the earth, the rotation of the earth, and experiments confirming mass-to-mass attraction.
    • No refutation of the evidence already provided.
  9. Nathan: Pictures of the south pole are cartoons
  10. Nathan: Pictures of satellites in space are cartoons
  11. Nathan: Pictures of the earth as all cartoons
  12. Nathan: it is a cartoon religion
    • No evidence provided
  13. maxresdefaultNathan: There is no downward earth curve at all
  14. Nathan: we don’t allow cursing or insults in the flat earth group on Facebook
    • Has already issued dozens of insults and curses several times in this debate.
    • Many examples of cursing and insults on his Facebook group.
  15. Nathan: The globe is not supported by facts
    • No evidence presented
    • No refutation of the facts that we have already presented
  16. Nathan: The globe is supported by falsehoods
    • No evidence presented
  17. Nathan: The globe is a spiritual deception under the disguise of science
    • No evidence presented
  18. Nathan: “An honest man, when proven to be wrong, must either admit he is wrong, or he longer remains to be an honest man”.
    • Evidence has already been presented showing the earth is a globe.  Nathan is not an honest man.
  19. Nathan: nobody can prove the earth spins 1,000 MPH
  20. Nathan: Space is a cartoon religion
    • No evidence presented
  21. Nathan: “We are taught that we live on a spinning tilted testicle in space that exploded from nothing.  And the pond scum evolved into monkeys and the monkeys eventually became men”
    • Ad hom
    • Straw man, this is not the claim
  22. Nathan: “I specialize in the science”
    • The irony18 Sundog in front of mountain
  23. Nathan referring to the dome: We have sun dogs, halos, sprites, mushroom clouds, atmospheric pressure, star trails, the sky is a map and a clock.
    • No evidence presented
    • No substantiation that these things are evidence of a dome
    • It seems Nathan thinks sundogs are a reflection off the dome.  The photo here shows the sun dogs between the observer and the mountain.  Clearly, this is not the case.
  24. Austin referring to the curve of the earth: “There’s a necessitation of a physical obstruction known as a geometric horizon”
    • This is a strawman, the “geometric” horizon is not what is seen, the appearance of the horizon is affected by atmospheric effects.
  25. Nathan: How did you get down to the center of the earth to measure it?
    • Showing his stupendous scientific illiteracy, Nathan is unaware that there are ways to measure things without a tape measure.
  26. Austin refutation of “Transcontinental Triangulation and the American Arc of the Parallel”
    • No evidence presented
    • Long word salad based on not reviewing the presented evidence
  27. Nathan: claims that survey of the earth would not work
    • No evidence presented
    • Genetic fallacy
  28. Nathan: For centuries they have been navigation with the sky because we do not on a tilted testicle blasting through space
    • No evidence presented that celestial navigation can not work on a globe
  29. Austin: “Theodolites rely on the presupposition of the horizon being physical”
    • It’s clear Austin has no idea how surveyors do anything
  30. Nathan: I’ve been to [list of lakes] they’re all flat, “measurably flat”
    • No evidence presented
    • When Nathan was asked for measurements of flatness: “You can’t measure flatness”
    • Around 45 minutes
  31. Austin: “Geodetic surveying done over earth not accounting for topography relying on the base presupposition of celestial alignment does not in any way validate your physical claim of curvature”
    • No evidence presented
    • Austin is attempting to falsify the entire field of surveying by not understanding it
  32. Nathan: We stood at one side of the Salton sea…we don’t see a drop at all
    • No evidence presented
  33. Nathan: You can see the entire skyline of Chicago from 50 miles
    • No evidence presented
  34. Nathan: at 50 miles, according to cartoon globe math the entire skyline should have been hidden by earth curve
  35. Nathan: Lakes don’t have tides
  36. When asked for photographic evidence of the vide across Lake Michigan, Nathan refused to bring it up, just says “it’s on My YouTube”
    • No evidence provided
  37. Nathan: At 54 minutes “we have no positive claims”
    • See the previous list of MANY positive claims
  38. Refutation of changing position of Tropic of Capricorn
    • No evidence presented
  39. Austin: You’re making a positive claim of axial rotation you need to substantiate that
  40. Austin: The default position is flat snd stationery
    • No evidence presented
  41. Austin: denies gravity
  42. Austin: You’re making a positive claim contrary to all observable phenomenon you have the burden of proof
    • Austin ironically misses the part where he just made a positive claim with no evidence provided
  43. Austin: There isn’t an observation that be replicated locally on earth where you can have gas pressure without the necessary antecedent of a physical container
    • No evidence presented
    • Austin is unaware of storm systems where the center of the storm has lower pressure than the surrounding atmosphere.  Oopsie.
    • Also, note that this small pressure difference can cause very high-speed winds like in a hurricane.
  44. Austin: All gas pressure that’s ever existed has physical containment
    • No evidence presented
  45. Nathan: The second law of thermodynamics states that a physical container is required
    • No evidence presented
  46. When asked why there is a pressure differential from the ground level to the top of a tall mountain:
    • No evidence presented
  47. Auistin: You can’t substantiate gravity
    • No evidence presented
    • I already presented 16 measurements of gravity that Austin refused to look at:
  48. Nathan: Space violates the second law of thermodynamics:
    • No evidence presented
  49. Austin: We falsified the radius
    • No evidence presented
  50. Nathan regarding superchat questions: I’ll answer every question in detail
    • Doesn’t answer direct questions in detail
  51. Nathan: Nobody has independently verified we have 24 hour sun in the south; “You have no evidence of the 24 hour sun in Antarctica, it’s like a cartoon sun bouncing around the background, it’s a total joke”
  52. Austin regarding the pressure differential from ground level to the Karman line: It’s a closed dynamic system, there’s a concentration of gas at the surface that is constantly being introduced
    • No evidence presented
  53. GPS satellites would be incredibly inefficient at 17,000 mph
    • No evidence provided
  54. Nathan regarding the sun stays the same size all day when viewed through a solar filter: we can’t look at. the sky to know the shape of the ground
    • No evidence presented
  55. Austin regarding the sun stays the same size all day when viewed through a solar filter: Angular resolution man
    • What?  Worst response ever.
  56. US Coast guard has tables that would be impossible a sphere
    • No evidence provided
  57. We tested the radius and disproved it
    • No evidence presented
  58. We are not blasting half a million miles an hour through space
    • No evidence presented
  59. “It’s measurable flat”
    • No evidence presented
  60. We are not allowed to go to space
    • No evidence provided
  61. The government lies about space
    • No evidence presented
  62. Longer circumference in the south than the north – referring to the Tropic of Capricorn
    • No evidence presented
  63. Bob’s gyro measured different rotation at different elevations
    • No evidence provided
  64. Electromagnetic wake effect causes hurricanes
    • No evidence provided
  65. Nathan: You can’t make rainbow indoors
  66. Nathan: Nasa Means “to deceive”